Nov 15 Classic was great, BC was better. IMO, BC hit the sweet spot in terms of content and gaming for WoW. It basically kept the core gameplay of Classic, but streamlined it for a better experience. Questing wasn't much different (still needed groups for hard quests), dungeons were still challenging (no LFD, heroics could be very difficult), and the raids were plentiful and required less people (25 and 10) Classes were much more balanced, specs were vastly improved (druids and paladins could finally tank and DPS as good as they could heal) In PVP, arenas are one thing I don't know if they should have ever added TBH. Some people might complain about the introduction of flying mounts, but I think it fit the expansion well. Also, Shattrath City was a great city hub! I enjoyed spending time there. Overall, I think it was the best WoW has ever been.Rhamus13 Nov 15
Nov 15 5 reasons I'm doubtful of WoW Classic I played WoW from patch 1.4 until Sunwell. And I'm not convinced on Classic. 1. I understand nostalgia for the gameplay, and it was a great game, by I don't get why people would want the old graphics when it looked outdated back then. Someone will level a warrior or rogue at snail pace and those 2004 boring graphics will reinforce his perception that the game is bad because it looks bad. 2. The lack of a second talent tree. This was the most demanded feature and I don't see people sticking with the game without it. 3. This has always been in the game, but weekly resets, I never got it, let people able to reset raids. Maybe have a 2 hours cooldown, but if a guild wants to farm a raid every night, or twice on a sunday, or farm the first 3 bosses of MC, let them. Gearing 40-60 people with weekly resets, in this day and age, good luck. 4. Dungeon finder, not sure people will like that, again bad decision. 5. The graphics, no seriously, this is bad on every level of game design, it just make the game look worse, a straight negative with no benefit.Pekuakami24 Nov 15
Nov 15 Question about the PVP system I am struggling to put the words to my question so let me just throw my 'plan' out there. Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong. Since horde are typically the pvp focused faction, I planned on rolling alliance on a pvp server with horde dominating the server in order to climb pvp ranks easier. My queue times would be instant and there would be less competition when trying to climb the ranks. The way I understand the honor system is that I am competing against others on my faction for a position on the ladder. Less competition would make it easier to climb. I know I will never get rank 14 and don't plan on it. I thought with my limited play time, if I was on a horde dominated pvp server I would cap around rank 6-7. Being on the alliance on the same realm I could get to 8-9 with the same /played. Is this true or do I have it wrong?Jdpp5 Nov 15
Nov 15 Can both versions be played at the same time? I would play a lot of classic wow in between the queue times in modern wow. I have to wait for queues for raids, wait for M+, wait for pvp queues, wait for mount respawns. During the demo, I had to decide if I wanted to test out the classic demo, or obtain new items on my modern characters. I would have played a lot more classic wow during my downtime in modern wow, but there was an issue where my modern wow account would be logged out of the game, if my classic wow account demo logged in. Pretty please, I would really like if the classic account did not log out the modern wow account and both could be logged in at the same time.Hunterhir8 Nov 15
Cold Eye Basilisks (marked RED on the map) - Western shoreline of the middle Stranglethorn Vale is infested with deadly Basilisks. These monsters are a good source of Heavy Leather and Thick Leather (we recommend Skinning for this spot), they also drop a lot of Vendor Trash Items (Curved Basilisk Claw, Intact Basilisk Spine, Large Basilisk Tail, and Squishy Basilisk Eye), Large Fangs (used in Leatherworking, Blacksmithing, and Alchemy Recipes), Wicked Claws (used in Leatherworking and Blacksmithing Recipes), 12 Slot Bags, and most importantly, Cold Eye Basilisks have a small chance to drop the Cold Basilisk Eye (a level 35 BoE Trinket, that can be very valuable, because useful Trinkets are rare in Classic). Recommended Level - 38+.
I now have a Patreon Page where you guys can support me while I work on Vanilla WoW leveling guides every day.  I appreciate all of you who support me on there, it means a lot to me right now.  Doing this full time is taxing on my financial situation.  My goal is to make the best Vanilla WoW leveling guides on the web and the donations keep me going at it healthfully.  There is also cool rewards you get in return for donating.  Thanks!
*If you run out of Bag and Bank space on your Alt, fear not, as the Mailbox itself is a great place to store your Items. Just mail everything to your Alt and keep it in the Mailbox. Expired parcels will be automatically mailed back to your Main, so you will not lose any items and be able to Mail everything to your Alt again (Mailing items cost some additional Gold, but the amount is negligible when compared to the utility provided by almost unlimited storage space).

Nov 15 Little Test on Class Quest Rewards Hey guys, I did a little test on certain class rewards to check whether they are adequate or not for the level they are obtainable. Paladin - Verigan's Fist is a famous weapon, added probably during the Naxx patch and lot of paladins remember lasting it for long time. Obtainable level is like 22, with party of same level players. And the Mace is equivalent to a level 26 Blue Mace. This means it's not bad! Warrior - Brutal Hauberk is infamous warrior chest. It is obtainable at level 20(as I remember), but it requires running a level 28+ dungeon. And it's mediocre - it compares to a level 24 blue, which is stupid. Whirlwind Axe is a famous warrior weapon which requires a nanny. :D You get level 30 and then pay people money or beg them to help you. This is not even doable with normal party until 35ish. Whirlwind Axe is equivalent to a 35 level Blue Axe, which is decent but still seems to be forcing it. Unless you hire a nanny, being social will probably help you get it at around 35-36 with similar level players. Warlock - Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe is pretty famous. I am not sure when it is exactly doable but is comparable to a level 35ish Robe. I think the verdict is that Paladin's Hammer is by far the best and the reason for it is that it was added later, at the end of vanilla, when Blizzard had more brains. :DHolylr1 Nov 15
Kaivax, a WoW forum community manager, revealed that WoW Classic's class design, battleground mechanics and stats on existing items will be set to their 1.12 state, despite the game releasing content that expands beyond that. This removes "progressive itemization," so if the stats on a specific piece of equipment was changed during the original updates, that won't take effect in this version.
Kaivax, a WoW forum community manager, revealed that WoW Classic's class design, battleground mechanics and stats on existing items will be set to their 1.12 state, despite the game releasing content that expands beyond that. This removes "progressive itemization," so if the stats on a specific piece of equipment was changed during the original updates, that won't take effect in this version.
Step-by-step class guides are on the way!  The 1-12 Mulgore Guide is the first guide to get all the individual class steps.  At the top of the guide, simply select which class you are playing and the page will dynamically update all the steps in the guide for that class (both text and images).  The rest of the guides will be slowly updated overtime to include all the class steps, but you can see how it's going to work with the 1-12 Mulgore.  I want to thank crazyK and his Placeholderguild for helping me out with the individual class content.  They are allowing me to get the 1-60 Alliance guide done while also getting all the class steps done at the same time, so everything can be ready for Classic launch (hopefully).
Nov 15 You Absolutely Cannot Have Sharding This will not work well with a classic experience. Myself and the vast majority of my friends plan on coming back for classic. None of them want sharding. I know I don't speak for everyone but this mechanic will completely ruin the experience. Just voicing my opinion as I am incredibly excited about this project.Wurmknight82 Nov 15

Kaivax, a WoW forum community manager, revealed that WoW Classic's class design, battleground mechanics and stats on existing items will be set to their 1.12 state, despite the game releasing content that expands beyond that. This removes "progressive itemization," so if the stats on a specific piece of equipment was changed during the original updates, that won't take effect in this version.
Nov 15 Spell Mechanic Questions and Hopes on Items I am not necessarily looking for any discourse that would lead to an answer, but hopefully this would gain enough traction that Blizzard might see it, and offer some insight to intended function come summer 2019. I know there is a current wall of text somewhere regarding questions on almost every item with a spell damage effect and whether or not they will be granted coefficients from character gear grand spell damage. I noticed one in particular that was left out and wanted to reiterate my personal favorites. Shard of the Fallen Star: Originally benefited in part or completely 1:1 ratio from spell damage and was capable of critting. It was nerfed in patch 2.0 which is after classic wow content. In the spirit of keeping things as they were, do you think Blizzard will keep this mechanic or change it to a post nerf state which although is not classic wow maybe seen as a balanced fix. Weapon List: Hand of Ragnaros, Netzerek the Blood Drinker, Corrupted Ashbringer, Shadowstrike - all received 2:1 coefficent originally in classic. I believe they were a little too strong but did not receive any nerf to my knowledge. Do you think these will remain as it was or be changed to satisfy the hopes for balance?Tunnelboy6 Nov 15
Cold Eye Basilisks (marked RED on the map) - Western shoreline of the middle Stranglethorn Vale is infested with deadly Basilisks. These monsters are a good source of Heavy Leather and Thick Leather (we recommend Skinning for this spot), they also drop a lot of Vendor Trash Items (Curved Basilisk Claw, Intact Basilisk Spine, Large Basilisk Tail, and Squishy Basilisk Eye), Large Fangs (used in Leatherworking, Blacksmithing, and Alchemy Recipes), Wicked Claws (used in Leatherworking and Blacksmithing Recipes), 12 Slot Bags, and most importantly, Cold Eye Basilisks have a small chance to drop the Cold Basilisk Eye (a level 35 BoE Trinket, that can be very valuable, because useful Trinkets are rare in Classic). Recommended Level - 38+.
Nov 15 Professions Hey guys. Can you think of good items that you crafted and lasted for several levels at least? I have played on private servers and with 1.12 itemization, there was barely anything that I could use for even 3 levels. I have leveled up a leartheworker and only thing I remember using was Deviate Scale Belt. Yes, it's very decent and could last a few levels. But later, there are some blue gloves which are fine, but nothing brilliant. And "Guardian Belt"(+6 spirit, +6 stamina) is pathetic for a blue. I remember trying to craft Robe of power as Tailor for a mage but it wasn't that brilliant either, maybe you digress. :) Sure, at level 60, there are nice robes for tailors but before that, do you think using the 1.12 client diminishes the role of crafting professions for leveling? Imagine ability to craft some brilliant item(for each profession) at level 30 that would last full ten levels just like Warrior's Whirlwind Axe, would be decent, no? Warlocks also have similar quest for Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe, but for classes that don't have such class quests would be an enormous boost.Holylr34 Nov 15
Find a Mage-Friend - The other things that get very expensive over time are Food and Drinks. At levels 1-40 you will most likely spend more than 15 Gold on them in total, and that is 15% of a level 40 Mount! To save at least a portion of this money, you should ask Mages if they can Conjure Food and Drink for you in exchange for a Small tip or favor. Remember that Conjured items disappear if you are offline for longer than 15 minutes.
Nov 15 Can both versions be played at the same time? I would play a lot of classic wow in between the queue times in modern wow. I have to wait for queues for raids, wait for M+, wait for pvp queues, wait for mount respawns. During the demo, I had to decide if I wanted to test out the classic demo, or obtain new items on my modern characters. I would have played a lot more classic wow during my downtime in modern wow, but there was an issue where my modern wow account would be logged out of the game, if my classic wow account demo logged in. Pretty please, I would really like if the classic account did not log out the modern wow account and both could be logged in at the same time.Hunterhir8 Nov 15
Blizzard has published a preview of new WOW Gnome and Tauren Heritage Armor, which are coming in Rise of Azshara. Here you could see what the armor looks like and how to unlock each of them. See new Tauren & Gnome Heritage Armor It has been confirmed that two new Heritage Armor sets, one for gnomes and one for tauren, are coming in WOW Rise of Azshara content update. You could see...
Nov 15 Classic hit me like a truck I had no interest in it what so ever. After watching the blizzcon demo - I can’t stop thinking about it. The combat it’s so visceral. The world is so much bigger and so much more dangerous. Each fight reminded me of dark souls. I’ve been watching only classic and vanilla vids since blizzcon, it’s actually ruined retail for me. I was actually enjoying raiding in BFA but now I don’t want anything but to play classic and immerse myself in it. What is this sorcery? I heard vanilla wow was addictive, but really? I feel like I’m in withdrawal and I haven’t even played it yet. I think I’m in trouble once it releases. I don’t want to log into retail anymore :(Gripp204 Nov 15
Some players choose to take a slightly alternative approach to their gold farming. This approach can take an extensive amount of time and dedication. Many people choose to train a ton of alts, solely for the purpose of making money and multi-tasking. In World of Warcraft Classic, professions are usually paired together. For example, if you’re training alchemy, you will need herbs to create consumables (e.g. flasks) that are used for raiding. An intelligent and observant player could seize this knowledge by creating one alchemy alt and one herbalism alt, swapping items as needed between each other. This fully mitigates the fees by the Auction House, which means your profit is maximised. Another complimentary combination you can use is skinning and tailoring, or cooking and fishing. 

If possible, avoid purchasing Gear from the Auction House - Ideally, you should be able to achieve level 60 without buying anything from the Auction House. This way you will save Gold, but possibly make leveling a bit harder for yourself. If you badly require an Item upgrade, and the suitable Item is available on the Auction House for a low enough price - buy it, but only if you think that the investment will pay for itself in one way or another (the main exceptions to the Auction House ban Rule are Weapons and Wands, as they make leveling much faster, and pay for themselves by allowing you to chain-kill more mobs without Eating and Drinking, which saves Gold and time). 

WoW: Classic is still in beta stage, so this is still unclear what final shape will the game have upon release. If any of the information above appears to be out of date or inaccurate we will try to update it as soon as possible. We will also appreciate your help with catching possible mistakes and fixing this guide for other players. If you have any feedback on it, please leave it in the comments below.
Nov 15 Classic hit me like a truck I had no interest in it what so ever. After watching the blizzcon demo - I can’t stop thinking about it. The combat it’s so visceral. The world is so much bigger and so much more dangerous. Each fight reminded me of dark souls. I’ve been watching only classic and vanilla vids since blizzcon, it’s actually ruined retail for me. I was actually enjoying raiding in BFA but now I don’t want anything but to play classic and immerse myself in it. What is this sorcery? I heard vanilla wow was addictive, but really? I feel like I’m in withdrawal and I haven’t even played it yet. I think I’m in trouble once it releases. I don’t want to log into retail anymore :(Gripp204 Nov 15
Nov 15 NO CHANGES. Change it, we won't play. NO server cap above 2500 NO further restrictions towards addon APIs NO sharding NO increased/decreased XP rate NO loot trading NO CRZ NO phasing NO connected realms NO dynamic respawn NO LFD/LFR NO new models NO dual talents NO wow token NO character boost NO shop NO transmog NO achievement NO heirlooms NO arena NO bfa character customization NO esports NO rated BG NO raid re-tuning NO class re-balancing NO personal loot NO flying NO mythic keystone dungeon NO multiple difficulties NO aoe-looting NO Death Knight NO Monk NO Demon Hunter NO blood elf NO draenei NO playable worgen/goblin NO allied races NO pandas No anti-cheat that blocks wall climbing (I want to see mount hyjal) YES to CRBG in the final patch. NO to any other cross realm technology These changes are unacceptable. Sorry I am speaking the truth. BTW. NO "NO CHANGES, BUT ..."Castradys254 Nov 15
Nov 15 Professions Hey guys. Can you think of good items that you crafted and lasted for several levels at least? I have played on private servers and with 1.12 itemization, there was barely anything that I could use for even 3 levels. I have leveled up a leartheworker and only thing I remember using was Deviate Scale Belt. Yes, it's very decent and could last a few levels. But later, there are some blue gloves which are fine, but nothing brilliant. And "Guardian Belt"(+6 spirit, +6 stamina) is pathetic for a blue. I remember trying to craft Robe of power as Tailor for a mage but it wasn't that brilliant either, maybe you digress. :) Sure, at level 60, there are nice robes for tailors but before that, do you think using the 1.12 client diminishes the role of crafting professions for leveling? Imagine ability to craft some brilliant item(for each profession) at level 30 that would last full ten levels just like Warrior's Whirlwind Axe, would be decent, no? Warlocks also have similar quest for Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe, but for classes that don't have such class quests would be an enormous boost.Holylr34 Nov 15
Recently, Blizzard provided their own WoW Token system for players to buy and sell World of Warcraft Gold. However, the constantly fluctuating supply and demand means that prices will vary. Consequently, getting the best prices isn't guaranteed, nor do you know when you'll make a sale. You also can't trade or resell any tokens you buy, as they become instantly "Soulbound".

Nov 15 Why was it "easy" for Nost, but hard for Bliz During Blizzcon we were told how challenging (at least that's how it came off) it was for Blizzard to create a working version of Classic... but Nostalrius, with no ties to Blizzard, was able to make a relatively bug free version of Vanilla? When I say "bug free" I know there was "a lot" of issues, but nothing an entire team at Blizzard couldn't fix. Wouldn't it be less work?Goró64 Nov 15


Nov 15 Loot sharing. Fools How stupid is the community about loot sharing? You know there is master loot right? Stop being dumb guys like holy crap. You also know that if you're the guy setting up a group or joining a group you have a option not to run or you can pick player's of different armor types... If you're a cloth wearer you just don't run or set up a group with other cloth wearers. Like this is something so simple and the community can't graps anything. I feel bad for blizzard sometimes with having to deal with brain power of this community. The community: "Oh, I didn't think about that. Derp, I'm an idiot."Plewtoe23 Nov 15
Nov 15 [OCE] Alliance Late night PvE will be a hard core focused PvE raiding guild. GOALS To clear all content efficiently and quickly To have fun To be the best we can be To clear MC during week 2- RAID TIMES raid times will be held in GMT+9, this is Japan's time zone for reference, this does NOT follow day light savings. for reference, at this moment these times would be 11:30 in Sydney, and 7:30AM EST USA. MON 9:30PM-12:30AM WED 9:30PM-12:30AM THUR 9:30PM-12:30AM-may schedule a 4th day during progression if needed- 20 man raids will be help on off days, or raid days if all content has been cleared. again to be clear, this schedule will not follow DSL, so your start time may move 1 hour forward or backwards during the year. EXPECTATIONS I want my raiders to be willing. You do not have to be a former pro raider, you do not have to have vanilla experience. While these things are welcomed and I do share these qualities. All i need from you is the willingness to learn and become better. Give me your best and I'll give you quality leadership that has proven time and time again to down bosses and push through content. Effort will always be rewarded. LOOT RULES I will be using my own system style of loot council. It has worked well for me in the past and I will continue to use it. I can explain parts of it in detail on discord if you wish. ROSTER This is a brand new endeavor, I will be main tanking and I am looking for others to help me push this to a competent raid team. I look forward to making fresh connections and creating great bonds with all of you. ABOUT ME I have been playing warcraft since vanilla. I climbed higher and higher into better and better guilds until I eventually landed in a top 10 US guild during MoP. before WOD released I essentially stopped hardcore raiding and went more casual. I am now looking to get back into a more hardcore scene with like minded individuals who enjoy the prestige of completing content quickly. CONTACT BATTLENET Firefly#1855 DISCORD Hatchmark#2695 the discord has lots of links to video guides and other sources to help get you ready for classicHatchmark8 Nov 15
Nov 15 Classic Box Cost Disappointed in the decision to bundle the subs and (at least for now) not have a separate Classic sub option. That said, can we at least get a separate box cost for access to classic? It would: - help alleviate temporary bloat and subsequent dead realms - servers would be more stable population-wise over time - remove the bulk of the need for sharding - give a solid idea of how many servers will be needed - allow blizzard to set up a separate classic forum for those with a monetary commitment - with a separate forum group, feedback would be limited to those with a vested interest The subs would still be bundled, but there would be a box cost, akin to what one would have to pay for BFA access. A very good to-the-point post from later on in this thread:... Another good post about how the current setup would necessitate sharding:... A decent (albeit short-term) alternative:...Brokenwind314	Nov 15 

As you level, you will buy new ranks of spells. If you splurge out on an item upgrade, you will not have enough gold readily available to upgrade to the latest ranks of spells: placing you behind. Moreover, you can buy gear upgrades from the Auction House (AH) or vendors. Furthermore, you may have large investments that need to be paid for professors. You will need to purchase reagents and items such as leather, bolts of cloth, alchemy supplies – unless you have a charitable friend or another high-level alt.
Nov 15 Loot trading is perfect for vanilla Loot trading is a good thing. It promotes forming close bonds and guilds. For example, lets say you are in a 5 man pug party, and 3 of those party members are in a guild, or are friends. Those 3 can roll for each other and pass the loot to the friend who wants it. ---------------------------------------------------------- Since in vanilla, all casters and healers want the same loot, and all melee and ranged dps want the same loot, you can always justify rolling to increase your friends odds. Now, if there was no loot trading, then pugs get the same chance as you to win loot, and that isn't right. Vanilla is supposed to be about community and friendship, not giving everyone an equal chance at loot. Sure, some people will be inconvenienced by it, but vanilla IS inconvenient, and slow at times, but we sacrifice convenience for more social interaction, and loot sharing will bring friends and guilds together like never before. Blizzard understands what we want, so that's why i'll be playing classic, and you should too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: The loners who try to get through the game with none having their back will have a harder time, and that's how it's SUPPOSED to be in an mmo. cant you see? This is nothing if not an improvement.Windsheared159 Nov 15
Nov 15 Loot trading is perfect for vanilla Loot trading is a good thing. It promotes forming close bonds and guilds. For example, lets say you are in a 5 man pug party, and 3 of those party members are in a guild, or are friends. Those 3 can roll for each other and pass the loot to the friend who wants it. ---------------------------------------------------------- Since in vanilla, all casters and healers want the same loot, and all melee and ranged dps want the same loot, you can always justify rolling to increase your friends odds. Now, if there was no loot trading, then pugs get the same chance as you to win loot, and that isn't right. Vanilla is supposed to be about community and friendship, not giving everyone an equal chance at loot. Sure, some people will be inconvenienced by it, but vanilla IS inconvenient, and slow at times, but we sacrifice convenience for more social interaction, and loot sharing will bring friends and guilds together like never before. Blizzard understands what we want, so that's why i'll be playing classic, and you should too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: The loners who try to get through the game with none having their back will have a harder time, and that's how it's SUPPOSED to be in an mmo. cant you see? This is nothing if not an improvement.Windsheared159 Nov 15
WoW: Classic is still in beta stage, so this is still unclear what final shape will the game have upon release. If any of the information above appears to be out of date or inaccurate we will try to update it as soon as possible. We will also appreciate your help with catching possible mistakes and fixing this guide for other players. If you have any feedback on it, please leave it in the comments below.
WoW: Classic is scheduled for August 27 (technically August 26 if you're in the Americas). The soonest that you can play it is starting in May, during Blizzard's scheduled stress tests. To opt-in you must have an active subscription on your Battle.net account. If you do, go to Account Management and select the Wow Classic beta. Keep in mind, there will be level caps during the test. The schedule is as follows:

Learn only the Essential Skills - Learning new and upgraded Skills gets very expensive very quickly (Buying a single skill that requires level 30 will cost you 1 Gold, and a single level 40 Skill costs 2 Gold) If you buy just the essentials, you can save anywhere from 15 to 30 gold before level 40, depending on your Class. Generally, higher ranks of skills that are used for their utility effects can be skipped (these include Warrior's Harmstring, Rogue's Gouge and Kick, Mage's Frost Nova, and many other CC and utility skills and abilities). Also, don't buy any ranks of abilities that you will not use during leveling (things like Rogue's Expose Armor, Hunter's Eyes of the Beast, Warlock's Eye of Kilrogg, and so on).

Grind - During the first few weeks after Classic's launch, making good money out of the Auction House alone will not be possible (items will be dirt cheap because no one will have Gold to spare). This means that you will be forced to Grind Mobs if you want to afford a mount at level 40, not to say level 60. Picking a right Grinding spot is very important, as the Gold/Hour differences between similar level spots can be huge. We will provide you with some worthwhile grinding locations in a further section of this Guide.

As you have known, official site had merged three realms into one realm two weeks ago (June 6). Light’s hope will launch new realm – Northdale this week (June 23). Official site is laying out plans for the timeline, and doing its utmost to ensure as smooth a launch as possible. Here mmogah.com will guide you to the new realm – Northdale’s timeline.
Nov 15 How to fix paladin dps Just make holy wrath & exorcism work on all types of enemy but not affect player characters. It's an easy fix that will make pally dps better in pve but stay the same as they were in vanilla in pvp. Put this thing into a deep ret talent so it will require people to spec deep in ret to be able to dps. A good spot is add it with two-hand weapon specialization making it so that by putting talents into it all hostile aside from players and undeads(since they are already affected by the default version) to be affected by the dmg and effects of the spells effectiveness by 33%/66%/100%. I doubt they would even do this so im just throwing out ideas since too many of you dont actually read the forum and only read the OP here you go to explain a bit of my reasoning because this change wont make ret stronger than pure dps; clearly most of you people didnt play vanilla nor know anything about naxx. ...Toushin260 Nov 15
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